5.0L swap questions.

My comment about maybe not having a realistic understanding about the swap stems from some of your comments. Perhaps I read too much into them.

"I have a pillar pod that is doing nothing that I can stick a tach in."

Are you kidding me? Do you know how dumb this sounds when I told you that the 5.0 tach will work with minor modifications? You said in an above post that you want everything SC related to work including the check engine light. I see a huge disconnect here that makes you sound like you have no idea what you are contemplating doing or what I am suggesting can/should be done.

I have done several SC 3.8 to 5.0 swaps on different years that all retained full functionality of all systems. I researched all the changes that need to be made and documented all of it.

I guess I assumed that someone who does these types of swaps would pretty much understand that a distributor operated V8 and a coil pack wasted spark V6 would require different computers to operate but sometimes I assume too much. When I started my first swap I automatically assumed that I would need the 5.0 EEC and all related wiring. At the time that seemed to me to just be common sense.

Apparently I'm wrong.

As for the 5.0, you may also not know that I am a tuner. Yes, I tune SC's and 5.0's for literally hundreds of people. From all over the NE. Yes, I've had a few hundred 5.0's of all sorts on the chassis dyno. A 5.0 with GT40 heads is such a total waste of time I don't know why you'd even consider the swap. Swap heads for 20rwhp? Are you kidding me? You are going to be sick of that swap after about 1 week and you'll be wondering why on earth you didn't get a good set of heads and do it right the first time. 230rwhp is just enough in an SC to get embarrassed by a bone stock Bonneville SS.

If you "love the car" then do it justice by making it better with all your work, not worse. A 3.8 with 230rwhp will destroy a 5.0 with the same power level. Like I said, I've dyno's many 5.0's and to get a decent amount of power from them does take a significant amount of money and parts - good parts - aren't really any cheaper. The difference is that there are truly cheap parts available for 5.0's. I'll rephrase for anyone slow to catch on - there are really ~~~~~~ parts available for 5.0's for cheap prices. You get what you pay for.

If your engine builder(s) had trouble with the 3.8 it's not the motor's fault. I actually build (professionally) 3.8L's for many of the members here. I have no less than 6 builds typically at various stages of completion in my shop so I think I know a few basic things about them. They do not have any inherent weaknesses but it is true that some shops really struggle with anything other than they are used to. Very few shops have ever actually rebuilt a 3.8L SC engine which should tell you something.

But all that aside the 5.0 swap can be fun. As I've said I've done a bunch of them. Back in the day I used to think that a 5.0 SC would be the coolest thing which is why I built one. After I was done I was not so convinced. I ended up selling the car and the new owner loves it. In fact I think he's still driving it 8 years later. But it wasn't fast and to make it as fast as my 3.8 would have cost more than I wanted to spend.

I also considered the LS swap but decided against that because by that time (2006) LS swaps were becoming all the latest rage and I like to be different. So instead I'm putting the T56 in my car and I'm sticking with the 3.8 (sort of).

I will help you with your swap and I support whatever people want to do, but I just found some of your statements to be contradictory and seemed very naive. My impressions were probably wrong.
 
suprised no one has said this, but why not ditch alot of the headaches and go with a 4bbl carb?no huge harness issues, simple to work on, and cheap to fix.
 
thats why i have been concearned when my 3.8 gives it up,i dont really think that anyone around here would know how to rebuild it correctly,and dave is so far from me.
 
DeanWinchester said:
I fully intend on building the 5.0L up, just not looking at spending $700 on heads alone, I would rather get a set of GT40 heads and put that $700 toward a supercharger. Seen a 5.0L with GT40 heads and not much else make 230RWP and 298RWtq, that is right around the same power that my 3.8L is making now, less torque, but still.
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If that's all your realistically expecting to get out of a 5.0 then you are seriously wasting your time.

I'll leave it at that.
 
Got a '93 5.0L in my '94. Car was a fully loaded (yes, minus phone) model with no engine / trans that was going to the crusher. All features of the car work (ARC, ABS, etc) as they would have with the 3.8.

It was a lot of work, but it wasn't THAT bad. It's a bone-stock 5.0L. Wasn't looking for a rocket ship, just wanted another comfy T-bird to cruise around in.

As has been said, you definitely want to get your hands on a similar-year 5.0L car to take things from. It's just so much nicer when you put it together with OEM parts and not rig stuff up. I eliminated the IRCM on my car and just added a couple of off-the-shelf relays for fuel and ECM power, but that's about the extent of my "custom" mods.

Get an EVTM for the car (or cars if the years differ)- that's imperative. Plan, plan, plan, and then plan for the little things that can't be planned for. The exhaust, for example: on the 5.0L, the driver's side O2 sensor is in the manifold, the passenger side O2 sensor is in the pipe. Things like fuel lines, AC parts, etc. The '93 that I got my motor from was mechanically complete, just wrecked up, and that was way useful.

I kind of feel like this is being made in to a little more of a big deal than it really is- if you take time to understand why things work in the donor, you can make them work in the recipient.
 
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XR7 Dave said:
My comment about maybe not having a realistic understanding about the swap stems from some of your comments. Perhaps I read too much into them.

"I have a pillar pod that is doing nothing that I can stick a tach in."

Are you kidding me? Do you know how dumb this sounds when I told you that the 5.0 tach will work with minor modifications? You said in an above post that you want everything SC related to work including the check engine light. I see a huge disconnect here that makes you sound like you have no idea what you are contemplating doing or what I am suggesting can/should be done.

I have done several SC 3.8 to 5.0 swaps on different years that all retained full functionality of all systems. I researched all the changes that need to be made and documented all of it.

I guess I assumed that someone who does these types of swaps would pretty much understand that a distributor operated V8 and a coil pack wasted spark V6 would require different computers to operate but sometimes I assume too much. When I started my first swap I automatically assumed that I would need the 5.0 EEC and all related wiring. At the time that seemed to me to just be common sense.

Apparently I'm wrong.

As for the 5.0, you may also not know that I am a tuner. Yes, I tune SC's and 5.0's for literally hundreds of people. From all over the NE. Yes, I've had a few hundred 5.0's of all sorts on the chassis dyno. A 5.0 with GT40 heads is such a total waste of time I don't know why you'd even consider the swap. Swap heads for 20rwhp? Are you kidding me? You are going to be sick of that swap after about 1 week and you'll be wondering why on earth you didn't get a good set of heads and do it right the first time. 230rwhp is just enough in an SC to get embarrassed by a bone stock Bonneville SS.

If you "love the car" then do it justice by making it better with all your work, not worse. A 3.8 with 230rwhp will destroy a 5.0 with the same power level. Like I said, I've dyno's many 5.0's and to get a decent amount of power from them does take a significant amount of money and parts - good parts - aren't really any cheaper. The difference is that there are truly cheap parts available for 5.0's. I'll rephrase for anyone slow to catch on - there are really ~~~~~~ parts available for 5.0's for cheap prices. You get what you pay for.

If your engine builder(s) had trouble with the 3.8 it's not the motor's fault. I actually build (professionally) 3.8L's for many of the members here. I have no less than 6 builds typically at various stages of completion in my shop so I think I know a few basic things about them. They do not have any inherent weaknesses but it is true that some shops really struggle with anything other than they are used to. Very few shops have ever actually rebuilt a 3.8L SC engine which should tell you something.

But all that aside the 5.0 swap can be fun. As I've said I've done a bunch of them. Back in the day I used to think that a 5.0 SC would be the coolest thing which is why I built one. After I was done I was not so convinced. I ended up selling the car and the new owner loves it. In fact I think he's still driving it 8 years later. But it wasn't fast and to make it as fast as my 3.8 would have cost more than I wanted to spend.

I also considered the LS swap but decided against that because by that time (2006) LS swaps were becoming all the latest rage and I like to be different. So instead I'm putting the T56 in my car and I'm sticking with the 3.8 (sort of).

I will help you with your swap and I support whatever people want to do, but I just found some of your statements to be contradictory and seemed very naive. My impressions were probably wrong.
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So, I should change the cluster to get a 5.0 tach when I can stick an aftermarket one on the pillar? I have very little experience with EEC based engines, I am used to OBD2 systems where you can reuse the computer. Any 4.6L computer will control any 4.6L or 5.4L engine. I figured that the ECM would have to be changed, but it wasn't made clear, so excuse the s**t out of me for asking for clarification.

What part of "I don't care about power" don't you get? My mustang was fast and I still switched to the SC, which by comparison is a slug.

What I assumed to be a rod bearing isn't. Pulled the subframe and the pan, found nothing. No spun bearings, no backed off rod nuts, nothing, so obviously my engine builder is good. That does lead to a question though, what the heck is going to knock? I hear it loud and clear in the oil pan with a stethoscope, but it's not there.
 
Plastigage EVERY single bearing in the bottom. I doubt you'd be able to see a .010 excessive gap by eyeball ...

And what else rotates at the same speed? Could have been, say, the harmonic balancer whacking on something ... or even a camshaft knock echoing through the block and down into the pan. Or maybe not. I dunno, truthfully.

RwP
 
RalphP said:
Plastigage EVERY single bearing in the bottom. I doubt you'd be able to see a .010 excessive gap by eyeball ...

And what else rotates at the same speed? Could have been, say, the harmonic balancer whacking on something ... or even a camshaft knock echoing through the block and down into the pan. Or maybe not. I dunno, truthfully.

RwP
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Definitely going to plastigauge it to be sure, but whacking the caps with a rubber mallet and pulling on the caps show no play. Going to pull the valve covers and see if bent a pushrod or something. If it's something simple, then I won't bother with a swap.
 
DeanWinchester said:
So, I should change the cluster to get a 5.0 tach when I can stick an aftermarket one on the pillar? I have very little experience with EEC based engines, I am used to OBD2 systems where you can reuse the computer. Any 4.6L computer will control any 4.6L or 5.4L engine. I figured that the ECM would have to be changed, but it wasn't made clear, so excuse the s**t out of me for asking for clarification.
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You didn't ask for clarification on the tach. I told you there is a way to make the tach work in the dash the way it's supposed to but you ignored that. You talked like you wanted to make this a seamless swap. Having a non-functional or inaccurate tach in the dash just seems contrary to me which is why I brought that up.

As for the EEC, it is highly programmable and can be adapted to any size engine just like the OBDII stuff. It doesn't have anything to do with being EEC IV (OBDI) or EEC V (OBDII). A V6 computer doesn't have the injector drivers to run a V8.

What part of "I don't care about power" don't you get? My mustang was fast and I still switched to the SC, which by comparison is a slug.
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Got it. If it were me and I didn't care about power, I sure wouldn't be swapping heads, but that's just me. Sorry for getting off base there.

What I assumed to be a rod bearing isn't. Pulled the subframe and the pan, found nothing. No spun bearings, no backed off rod nuts, nothing, so obviously my engine builder is good. That does lead to a question though, what the heck is going to knock? I hear it loud and clear in the oil pan with a stethoscope, but it's not there.
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What kind of knock is it? Is it a steady solid sounding knock or is it more of a clatter type knock? Does it change with load/rpm? What about when it is cold vs. hot? It is very common when guys rebuild these engines that they don't put enough clearance into the piston/pin so they tend to stick and knock as they rock back and forth in the bore. It's also possible if they used aftermarket pistons that they might have put them in too tight and galled a skirt. In that case it may have clearanced itself out and begun to knock. Another possibility is that if you made 230rwhp without tuning, the motor may have gone lean or got too much timing at some point and detonated pretty bad. If that happened you could have cracked a skirt, broken a ring land, or bent a rod. All of which will cause the motor to knock.
 
sorry to be frank, but two pages of ~~~~~~~~ and might not be anything wrong w/motor!! are you 12. sorry that was rude, but really?
 
XR7 Dave said:
What kind of knock is it? Is it a steady solid sounding knock or is it more of a clatter type knock? Does it change with load/rpm? What about when it is cold vs. hot? It is very common when guys rebuild these engines that they don't put enough clearance into the piston/pin so they tend to stick and knock as they rock back and forth in the bore. It's also possible if they used aftermarket pistons that they might have put them in too tight and galled a skirt. In that case it may have clearanced itself out and begun to knock. Another possibility is that if you made 230rwhp without tuning, the motor may have gone lean or got too much timing at some point and detonated pretty bad. If that happened you could have cracked a skirt, broken a ring land, or bent a rod. All of which will cause the motor to knock.
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Steady, solid, increases speed with RPM, but not intensity, louder from under the car and from behind the car. Cold quiets it up some, warm makes it louder. Wrist pins weren't sticking and don't appear to be sticking now. The block is .20 over with sealed power pistons. The cylinder walls still look good. The rods aren't hitting anything when I rotate the engine and don't look visually bent. I am not getting a misfire or compression loss.

I don't hear any pinging at all, but I am thinking that you might be right about the detonation.

moovn2vegas said:
sorry to be frank, but two pages of ~~~~~~~~ and might not be anything wrong w/motor!! are you 12. sorry that was rude, but really?
Click to expand...

Knocking must be completely normal engine operation. I guess I will throw it all back together and forget about everything.
 
Bearings pretty much always vary knock with load and rpm. A rod bearing will be most noticeable when lifting throttle at about 2500rpm.

It sounds like a piston problem. You did try running the motor with all the belts removed, right?
 
1990 SC 5spd engine swap 5.0 HELP!

Before you go there, yes I've done a search and it has gotten me this far.

I know I won't get much help on TCCOA which is why i came to SCCOA but haven't found any completed projects.

When I got the car the engine was in pieces and had a split crank so I don't want to rebuild it as I already have a rebuilt 5.0l in my sport w/ HCI waiting for a donor car and this has everything I wanted for that car and then some.

I have already re-pinned the ECU harness (just need to run the wires for the extra 2 injectors) and am wondering if I need to wire in the DLC+ and DLC- wires since this ecu was not pinned for them (those were Octane Adjustment and Fuel Pump Monitor respectfully). Also, is it possible to splice the dizzy into the EDIS wires or do I need to cut up the 5.0 body harness and transplant those wires into the SC body harness?


XR7 Dave said:
You won't get the kind of help you need at TCCOA because those guys are starting with V8's and wont' be able to tell you how to swap it over.

I've swapped several SC's to V8 so I do know what is involved to do it successfully while maintaining all your SC functionality.

You'll need 5.0 Tbird, and don't get a rusted out one. Get one that is clean because the last thing you want is a bunch of corroded parts.
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I have my 91 sport to rob parts from.

XR7 Dave said:
I recommend a 92/3 donor car but a 91 will work too. If you get a 91 then the motor mounts won't fit and you'll need to get some aftermarket ones made. Chuck can hook you up with those. Keep in mind it's not the rubber mount that you need so much as it is the brackets. You can't buy new brackets so you need the right ones or you'll need some custom.
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Can you tell me more about the difference between the motor mounts (brackets) on 91 vs 92/3?

XR7 Dave said:
As for the wiring, there are only a couple very minor changes required to run the 5.0. You will have to change the entire engine wiring harness but fortunately for you in that year they basically plug right in. You'll need the gauge cluster from the 5.0 to make the tach work properly. If the donor is a 91 then you'll have to just use the tach with some modification because the cluster won't plug in (well it won't work properly because the pins are different on the 91 vs. the 92-3 which are the same fortunately).
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I've re-pinned the ECU harness already minus the extra 2 injectors.

Mine is a sport cluster with fuel on bottom so I should be fine.

XR7 Dave said:
You'll have to use some of the driverside wiring harness from the 5.0 because the SC and 5.0 use different feed wiring for the IRCM. It's minor, but you have to move the EEC relay.
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Can you tell me more about this? I know the 5.0 has an EEC relay in the junction box but do i have to run wires too?

XR7 Dave said:
You'll need all the AC lines and Power steering lines from the 5.0 car since those are in different locations on the two cars. And of course you'll want the radiator from the 5.0 car because it's totally different. I prefer to use an electric fan though because the clutch fan on the 5.0 cars sucks and it takes up a ton of room at the front of the motor and makes it a ~~~~ to do anything up there.
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Again, coming from my donor vehicle. I already upgraded to MKVII fan.


XR7 Dave said:
I have documentation on the wiring swaps somewhere but it's been a few years so I'd have to dig it out.
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Could you please? I'll email you a formal request if that helps! I'm knee deep in this and don't want to turn back for lack of information. I'll eventually be supercharging the 5.0 or swapping in a 5.8 so any info helps!

Thanks!
 
You would find info on TCCOA...I thought both clubs got along. Then again seems like a lot of newbs go to facebook. I am more into the website lol.
 
Most of those guys start with 5.0 (I'm one of them) or N/A 3.8 so it doesn't apply here aside from the motor mount issue. The wiring is definitely different so it would prove to be more help asking here especially on a thread where someone has claimed to have done it several times with wiring diagrams to boot! :D
 
I didn't "claim" to have done it, I HAVE done it several times. However, I always used the 5.0 engine wiring harness rather than try to modify the V6 harness so I'm not much help to you. Sorry about the diagrams though. It was many years ago and several computers crashes which means I don't actually have the diagrams anymore. When I originally did it I used the Ford factory wiring diagrams which I got off Ebay to trace down individual wires.

Since I used the Sport 5.0 engine wiring harness the only things I had to wire in or repin where the underhood fuse box and the dash/fuel pump wiring connectors in the dash. All the engine stuff was plug and play.
 
Thanks for replying! I actually am using the 5.0l sport engine harness but am keeping the body harness on the SC (which actually has the edis integrated into it) that goes into the firewall and down to the ECU. The engine harness plugs into that. The only thing I don't know how to do is wire in the dizzy because the SC didn't have one.

Now I have more information though! Had no idea I had to redo the fuel pump relay under the dash but that makes sense! Can you describe what you did? Also, more specifically, where do the wires run to/from for the eec relay in the fuse panel?
 
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