S.C.C.O.C.T Banner Update

[SuperCoupeSC91]

I dont freaking understand, After recieving an E-mail from George AGAIN, i guess i cant even post a link to this, e-mail me those who would like to see get a link to see it, or for those that know the site address, just go to our website you will see it..

Thanks,

Alex L

[gldiii]

It's always easy to blame the rules enforcer and not deal with the actual issue. I did not edit your thread hear nor did I ask you to remove it at this time. (Heck, I can see the link is still in your sig, along with a link to a non-MN12 items for sale site.) What I did relate to you in a PRIVATE email was that you went ahead with something we had warned you that SCCoA did NOT want to be associated with, specifically the misuse of Ford copyrighted logos on sites affiliated with the SCCoA.

All you would have to do is something like substitue the words "Thunderbird SC/XR7" for the copyrighted thunderbird wing graphic in your club logo. I'm still at a loss for why this is such a big issue.

Just follow your own words from your site:

All images, text and files within this entire website must have written approval from an "S.C.C.o.CT Officer" before any distribution and or copying of any kind for personal and or business purposes.

We have been and are still trying to be reasonable, it would be great to get a little cooperation. You want to piggyback off a site that has been ten years in the making, to assist you in forming a club and we all all for that. But there always are some conditions and compromises that go along with that partnership.

My apologies to the rest of the board members and guest. I don't usually let these things escalate to this level, but thought it only fair to here the club's side as well.

[SuperCoupeSC91]

know what.. i again edited my post for you (thought it was ok int he first place, not placing any pics or logos etc.).. still isnt good enough.. like i said my e-mail this time i didnt understand why now you seemed mad after you e-mailed, you want to post something to everyone to make me look like a fool..

my sig is removed and so am i..

delete me as a member as i dont want to be a memeber of sccoa anymore..

i'm through..


Alex LaChance..

[Pablo94SC]

Originally Posted by gldiii

You want to piggyback off a site that has been ten years in the making, to assist you in forming a club and we all all for that. But there always are some conditions and compromises that go along with that partnership.

I'm not sure exactly what the specifics are, but usage of the SC logo was never an issue until the club fell under new management. Did Ford specifically tell you that you cannot use the SC or Ford logo, or is this a preventive practice on your part. Secondly, and I ask this with all sincerety, are you really that concerned about being held liable for the actions of a club member as to ban the use of Ford logos in signatures? If so, and in my humble opinion, just typing the words Ford, Thunderbird, SuperCoupe, SC, et al, without the ® symbol is a violation of copyright law and is therefore a punishable offense.

In other words, I don't think Ford really cares that we use their logo for our club as long as we are not making a profit off of it or using it to market products for sale. Using it for a club event or affilation is most likely encouraged by them as it promotes product and brand name recognition. In other words, I think all the non-logo talk is being a little too over-protective. Then again, what do I know.

[gldiii]

The SCCoA is an incorporated entity. We have agreements with Ford on use of logos and even had logos approved by Ford for sale to members. We actually know a lot of the Ford people as individuals and many have shared time with the club at Carlisle. We also feel a debt to many current and former Ford corporate personnel due to their assistance in procuring the AWD vehicle and other MN12 things they have assisted us with over last few years. So, yeah, we do our part to maintain that relationship and this is a change from how things used to be. Duffy and I just missed meeting the Ford guy that approved our request at Carlisle last year. He was in the Ford booth, but left before we got there on Saturday. These "evil" corporate guys are REAL people to us.

(And Ford recently sued and had Ford Parts Network change their name!)

We have worked with Alex on this issue and he chose to bring up his site with a copyrighted logo on it and wants to have it directly associated with the SCCoA. This would all be over by a simple change in the logo. (I'm a bad, bad guy!)

We may be able to extend logo privileges to associated chapters in the future, but are not in a position to grant or pursue that at this time. Even if that privilege can be extended there are still certain rules that go along with the display of the logos.

[Pablo94SC]

What I'm saying is, does the actions of a member or a seperate club have anything to do with the SCCoA specifically. For example, if I created SCCoNY, a wholely seperate club, and had links to my site in my sig here, and links to the SCCoA (for additional information) on the SCCoNY site, would you be liable. I feel the answer is no. Again, I might be wrong George, but Ford Parts (or whatever they were called) was a business, just like the SCCoA is (albeit non-profit). Of course you have to worry about what the SCCoA does. However, a group of enthusiasts using the logo because they love Ford, Thunderbirds, etc, is not going to attract the attention of Ford. As long as they (member or seperate club) is not officially sanctioned by the SCCoA, you are not liable for their content or what they do. Guilt by association went the way of the Dodo long ago.

I mean, next thing you're going to tell me is that you'll kick me out of the SCCoA tent at Carlisle if I wear a homemade Ford Thunderbird SC shirt because it could be linked to you. I really think you're being a little hyper-sensitive about this.

[ThunderDave]

Originally Posted by SuperCoupeSC91

know what.. i again edited my post for you (thought it was ok int he first place, not placing any pics or logos etc.).. still isnt good enough.. like i said my e-mail this time i didnt understand why now you seemed mad after you e-mailed, you want to post something to everyone to make me look like a fool..

my sig is removed and so am i..

delete me as a member as i dont want to be a memeber of sccoa anymore..

i'm through..


Alex LaChance..

Alex, I don't think George is asking too much. He knows what Ford will allow or what they won't. If you were to make the changes you were told about, I think you'd be ok. It will keep sccoa out of trouble with Ford and keep you out of trouble with them as well. I don't think it's worth leaving over.

And as far as the signature links go, I think it needs to be sc or at least mn12 related.

[Pablo94SC]

Originally Posted by RadiumSC

Alex, I don't think George is asking too much. He knows what Ford will allow or what they won't.

I think there is a difference between the SCCoA using a Ford trademark and an individual (or small enthusiast group) using it, epsecially when it's not used to generate revenue. In other words, Ford isn't going to sue you for copyright infringement if you airbrush a Ford logo on a t-shirt and wear it to a car show. They may sue SCCoA for selling them though. I think George is being a little over-protective. Sure, it may be his site and he can do whatever he wants, but if it's run like a totalitarian regime he's going to lose the old-time enthusiasts that keep it running. New SC owners aren't likely to be as sentimental as the rest of us... or as likely to pay for a membership.

[Kurt K]

Paul,

I don't see this as a "totalitarian regime", but more like erroring on the side of caution. Even by George's own admission, logo usage could spread to chapters in the future. Obviously, I don't have any clue about the underlying legalities of this issues, but I think I can also say that neither do you.

I personally don't see the big deal of not using the emblem and sccoa at the same time, because it seems to be the only real issue.

[Pablo94SC]

If his site and logo are somehow directly related to SCCoA by hosting or the like, then I can see where George has the issue. If the image is hosted on another site then I see no reason for the SCCoA to worry. It's not like there aren't hundreds, if not thousands, of banners, signatures, and avatars that use, without permission, Ford copyrighted material in them everyday. If the SCCoA is truly that worried about it, then the use of any and all user-related graphics on the site should be shut off. Like I said, it's their site, but it seems more like paranoia than anything else to me.

Edit: As for using SCCoA.com name, image, etc... George can ask that to be removed. Intellectual property rights and all.

[Duffy Floyd]

Since I was the one who negotiated the agreement with Ford to allow the SCCoA to use copyrighted emblems and logos allow me to make a few comments.

Personal decisions concerning what people chose to make on there own, wear on there own, sell on there own are just that...personal decisions. The sticky point becomes when people then chose to want to be affiliated with the SCCoA and continue to use Ford copyrighted emblems and logos.

The original issue that came to the fore was Alex posting a thumbnail of the proposed CT Chapter's new Logo here on the SCCoA that in our opinion did not meet the requirements we as the SCCoA are bound by. Alex can use anything he wants in any manner he wants but we as the SCCoA don't want to see it posted here on the club's site. Now as far as links to other sites????? As long as they are not claiming they are affiliated with the SCCoA we have no control over what they chose to do concerning obtaining permission to use copyrighted materials on that site.

The same concept should apply to avatars and signatures that may include copyrighted material. What you may chose to use elsewhere...have at it. But we are trying to keep them off the club's site.

Ford personnel DO visit this site who are responsible for enforcing Ford's copyright and intellectual property rights. That is one reason we changed the banner on the site to remove the T-Bird emblem which did not have "clear space" around it and was found in violation of our terms of use.

Given we DO have some control over what gets posted since we CAN delete ANYTHING we chose to here, that then infers some responsibility on the club to "control" what gets posted. We are trying to respect Ford's wishes ONLY, to show a good faith attempt at following the agreement we made with them. This is NOT a personal attack on anyone.

[gldiii]

One of the bigger issues in this case that most people are overlooking is that the SCCoCT was wanting to be sanctioned as a chapter of the SCCoA and we have been working with them on that part. That fact makes this all a little less totalitarian and a little less paranoid. We have had several other discussions on the boards and in private on this issue.

Any organization can establish rules and regulation and enforce them. We are trying to be reasonable with ours. I don't think enforcing these rules for a protential chapter puts us on a slippery slope where we don't allow users that have an "f", "o", "r" or "d" in their name to become members.

In this case I had sent a personal email to the parties involved and they chose to edit their post and remove the links. They were not asked to remove the links, they did that on their own and now we are here. Like Duffy said, people are free to do what they want on their site.

[Scott Long]

I feel that if they want there own chapter message forum on here then he should agree to your terms since then it would be linked directly to the SCCoA as a parent club. If he wants to be a seperate club on his own and not linked here then fine he can post whatever he wants. However if he logo's a small link in his sig but no picture I feel that would be ok.

I understand the SCCoA being incorporated now has liability and if sued, we'd all have to chip in for the expense or the club would be no more and George himself may be held liable for anything owed to ford. That could be a very expensive venture and could wipe him out as well so he is putting his neck on the line and that is why the guidelines need to be followed to a T.

Ford could ask for millions in damages to make an example out of this and who's going to pony up the money?

I know it sucks but Ford can make any rules they want since their logo's are copyrighted. Design your own logo and copyright it and then you can be picky over how and where its used with or without permission.