Well his job is also to torque them down properly, and given that photo, it’s clear he didn’t do at least some part of his job. So now that we’re past that, did the current mechanic check them for straightness before bolting them back on? Because if he didn’t, and the head is warped or wasn’t decked properly, 5 minutes with a straight edge and feeler gauges now will save you having to redo the job yet another time.
Can't catch a break
- Thread starter MercXr7-5speed
- Start date
MercXr7-5speed
Registered User
The engine builder put everything together except the accessories. Im here with him now and hes telling me detonation caused this.
DOUG H
SCCoA Member
Decking is normally a term used when material is removed from the block to true it, not the head(s)
Heads are usually skimmed or trued. I know what you are trying to say though. Porting & polishing the heads is not part of
the "standard" rebuild process & is a extra
DOUG H
SCCoA Member
I don't think the knock sensor would have allowed that much damage to have occurred in less then 100 miles. Even if the initial timing was set incorrect, it should have changed timing to compensate
MercXr7-5speed
Registered User
Yes sorry if my terms are incorrect. Im very frustrated at the moment ...taking a breath. The engine builder is swearing ignition to is to blame and said to me "Whats going to happen in another 100 miles when this happens again and no one listened to me?".
Just for arguments sake, is there something else I should be checking as well?
And yes, we paid for a full engine rebuild. All new internals and port and polish of heads. He swears his machine is true and he tightened the bolts.
DOUG H
SCCoA Member
I know there are people on here a lot more knowledgeable then me, see what they think.
I just don't think detonation would have done that? What do the other 5 fire ring area's look like?
Detonation from timing should be evident on all 6, unless a inj. issue or something just that 1 cylinder. I think the knock sensor would have
signaled ECU to retard the timing, before that much damage could have happened. Just my opinion though. I would hope he wouldn't have
drove a fresh rebuild engine overly hard initially. You said earlier there was no "break in".
I just don't think detonation would have done that? What do the other 5 fire ring area's look like?
Detonation from timing should be evident on all 6, unless a inj. issue or something just that 1 cylinder. I think the knock sensor would have
signaled ECU to retard the timing, before that much damage could have happened. Just my opinion though. I would hope he wouldn't have
drove a fresh rebuild engine overly hard initially. You said earlier there was no "break in".
MercXr7-5speed
Registered User
There was no real break in. The engine builder said there was none required but we had coolant bubbling from the start. But no he didnt drive it hard. I believe him when he said he didnt beat it. The other gasket side is perfectly fine and the other two rings look good on this one. Here is the entire gasket.
Attachments
Detonation can cause damage to a head gasket, but not that bad in that short a time period, and you aren’t going to have detonation at idle, so if it was bubbling in the coolant right away, then this problem existed before the engine was ever started. Find out if your mechanic has a machinists straight edge. If he doesn’t, here is one on Amazon, just order it to be able to get to the bottom of this.
You lay that across the surface of the head in different directions and try to slide a feeler gauge between it and the head. I think the spec is like .004” max, but ideally if the heads were just resurfaced you want less than .001”. If you do that, and that head is warped, or low in that corner or something like that, then you have found your problem, you have the head resurfaced to correct the problem, and go back together. If the head comes up straight, do the same procedure on the deck of the block to make sure it is straight. If all that checks out, then put it back together with new head bolts and new gaskets, and drive it while making sure there isn’t any pinging.
You lay that across the surface of the head in different directions and try to slide a feeler gauge between it and the head. I think the spec is like .004” max, but ideally if the heads were just resurfaced you want less than .001”. If you do that, and that head is warped, or low in that corner or something like that, then you have found your problem, you have the head resurfaced to correct the problem, and go back together. If the head comes up straight, do the same procedure on the deck of the block to make sure it is straight. If all that checks out, then put it back together with new head bolts and new gaskets, and drive it while making sure there isn’t any pinging.
MercXr7-5speed
Registered User
Just ordered it. My mechanic is going to wait until this arrives and we will check everything ourselves before sending the heads back to the engine builder. Thats a good suggestion thank you. The mechanic doesnt have one but said he probably should so he will reimburse me for it. Someone needs to pay this mechanic for his time to disassemble and reassemble everything. Obviously the engine builder isnt going to take responsibility for this. I tried to talk to him reasonably and eneded up just walking out saying we would be in touch without any confrontation.
MercXr7-5speed
Registered User
I agree. This is going to cost us more money and it shouldn't. But one step at a time. Ill post back on the findings with the striaght edge. Ty for the suggestions and replies.
MercXr7-5speed
Registered User
Ok so update. We got the straight edge and the block was perfect and the head was just a little out on the passenger side so we had them redone by the engine builder.
The mechanic calls me yesterday and says
"Um, so the head bolts at the point where were the gasket failed have no threads left in the block."
He said they could probably helicoil the bolt holes to repair it being its a cast block. So me being completely ignorant about this...is this a good idea and ok? Or should we source another block?
The mechanics opinion on this is the engine builder over torqued the head bolts and stripped them out. I asked him if it was possible it happen when they disassembled the engine this second time after the gasket blew. He's telling me he doesnt see how that could have happened and that they would have came out ok if the engine builder over torqued them and that we wouldnt know until they went to reassemble everything.
It makes sense to me kinda but I wanted to get an opinion here before I move foward with contavting the engine builder and repairing the bolt holes. Thanks guys. I do really appreciate the responses here.
The mechanic calls me yesterday and says
"Um, so the head bolts at the point where were the gasket failed have no threads left in the block."
He said they could probably helicoil the bolt holes to repair it being its a cast block. So me being completely ignorant about this...is this a good idea and ok? Or should we source another block?
The mechanics opinion on this is the engine builder over torqued the head bolts and stripped them out. I asked him if it was possible it happen when they disassembled the engine this second time after the gasket blew. He's telling me he doesnt see how that could have happened and that they would have came out ok if the engine builder over torqued them and that we wouldnt know until they went to reassemble everything.
It makes sense to me kinda but I wanted to get an opinion here before I move foward with contavting the engine builder and repairing the bolt holes. Thanks guys. I do really appreciate the responses here.
I highly doubt the threads were damaged on disassembly. The only time that happens is sometimes if a bolt has been in there for so long and corroded in place, but given that this motor was just recently assembled, that means either the builder damaged them, or the builder didn’t notice them being damaged when he was assembling the engine. Either way, it doesn’t look good for him.
As for repairing the threads, I’m very leery of helicoils in general, let alone in a high torque situation like a head bolt, but switching to another block is basically rebuilding the engine all over again, so it may be worth a try. Maybe see if a timesert would work there instead of a helicoil. Those are a much better way to repair threads, assuming it can be done without interfering with the deck surface. Regardless, I would definitely switch to head studs instead of bolts. Not only are they reusable, but they are less prone to stripping out the threads in the block so if the threads in any other holes are questionable, you will be less likely to have an issue.
If you do decide on going with another block, I see you are in Philly which isn’t too far from me, and I do have a complete SC engine that had high mileage but ran fine, that I would let go cheap.
As for repairing the threads, I’m very leery of helicoils in general, let alone in a high torque situation like a head bolt, but switching to another block is basically rebuilding the engine all over again, so it may be worth a try. Maybe see if a timesert would work there instead of a helicoil. Those are a much better way to repair threads, assuming it can be done without interfering with the deck surface. Regardless, I would definitely switch to head studs instead of bolts. Not only are they reusable, but they are less prone to stripping out the threads in the block so if the threads in any other holes are questionable, you will be less likely to have an issue.
If you do decide on going with another block, I see you are in Philly which isn’t too far from me, and I do have a complete SC engine that had high mileage but ran fine, that I would let go cheap.
MercXr7-5speed
Registered User
You mention studs.....the engine did have arp head studs when it went to the builder. Previous owner did head gaskets a few years back and had receipts for the parts. The failure that caused us to rebuild the motor was a spun bearing. I would assume he used the ARPs again. I will check with the mechanic to make sure.
I have only skimmed this thread , but if it has not been suggested , get a good quality micrometer and mic the gasket in a clean part of the burned out area then multiple other spots around the full gasket and also the other head gasket for comparison , there should be a manufacturer spec thickness on pre and post torque , all this will help tell you if the heads were torqued properly or at least evenly .
In the late 80s early 90s we used to put a slight amount more torque [ + 5 per cylinder from each end ] on the inside head studs on the 5.0 stuff under boost as that is generally were they were blowing out ,.. as in more in the middle area between the front and back cylinders .. some of them had motor work, boost and spray all at once ,so it was all we could do to keep the gaskets in it .
Also make sure the heads are dead flat with a good quality straight edge as warps can do this as well ,but would have to be pretty bad to do that in such a short time.
Tim Groth
SCCoA Member
I commend your cool headed approach in this matter but holy smokes there would be no way I'd let these people continue working on the engine if it were mine. I'd file a warrant in debt and try to recoupe my losses in small claims than continue this madness.
So many excuses, none of which make sense also how do you just NOW figure out the threads are bad. I'm with MadMickey here either they messed them up during assembly or overlooked it..Also I'm pretty sure this would be felt in the initial torque sequence with head bolts.
How I read this is guy was trying to blame everything but his own work and now it's coming to light he screwed the pooch.
Just the kicker for perspective. I'm not a mechanic or engine builder by trade. I built my engine from reading these forums...if my simpleton self can determine what's good or bad there's absolutely zero excuse for professionals.
No chance I'd agree with helicoils. Source a used block and have them front the bill at min.
-Tim
So many excuses, none of which make sense also how do you just NOW figure out the threads are bad. I'm with MadMickey here either they messed them up during assembly or overlooked it..Also I'm pretty sure this would be felt in the initial torque sequence with head bolts.
How I read this is guy was trying to blame everything but his own work and now it's coming to light he screwed the pooch.
Just the kicker for perspective. I'm not a mechanic or engine builder by trade. I built my engine from reading these forums...if my simpleton self can determine what's good or bad there's absolutely zero excuse for professionals.
No chance I'd agree with helicoils. Source a used block and have them front the bill at min.
-Tim
I didn't read this part... it is the engine builders responsibility to *know* the block threads are good before dropping a stud or bolt into it .. it can be honestly missed but its still his responsibility .. sometimes people chase threads with a sharp tap to clean them up quick and end up removing thread material .
Either way, I would be looking at the bolt/stud threads to see if there is a load of metal stuck on them from being pulled [ it will not change anything other than you will have more clues ] , if not then the threads were probably already previously worn to the point of only holding the basic torque, but not being able to withstand the future heat cycles and cylinder pressures.
You may be able to do an insert repair but if you do I would be only using studs on it not bolts after that ... also I would get the longest threaded repair insert available for the application , you will need a fair amount of insert thread to block to stud contact for stability .
MercXr7-5speed
Registered User
Thanks for the replies everyone. I had said from the beginning to the engine builder that the way the gasket failed it looks like the head bolts were loose on the passenger side. He got angry with me and said there was no way that happened. So far hes tried to blame timing, then detonation and literally said " My milling machine only knows one settting, FLAT." He also claims "My torque wrench only knows how to do tight." Its unfortunate but there isnt anyone else nearby that builds engines. This guys has been around for many years but as if late we are starting to hear horror stories.
I have a digital caliper and plan on in measuring the gasket material today. We had purchased a straight edge recommended earlier in the thread and it definitely showed minimal signs of warpage at the point of failure. Im not sure if thats because the head was leaking there or because his milling machine didn't do FLAT!
I plan on approaching him tomorrow with our found evidence and asking what his plan is for going foward on making sure these extra costs are handled. The mechanic has been documenting everything and has already assured us he will be backing us in court if need be.
I definitely get worked about these things but am able to take a level headed aproach when it comes to finding a resolution with the parties involved. If I don't like his answer, my simple answer will be "And thats how you would like to move foward with this, ok, you will be heaaring more from us shortly." And simply walk out and move foward in small claims. I will give him the opportunity to cover the additional cost for the mechanic to fix his sloppy work and I expect a full one year warranty on the work starting from the finish date of these final repairs.
We were supposed to get a 12/unlimited mileage warranty on his work. Obviously his work is not the greatest and if we have a failure going foward....well....we will deal with that if it happens. Needless to say, I know lot of people in this area and have even ran a race for township commissioner here. Many people will be hearing about the final handling of this so it's in his best interest and his best business practice to admit the fault and make this right. Stay tuned.....lol
I have a digital caliper and plan on in measuring the gasket material today. We had purchased a straight edge recommended earlier in the thread and it definitely showed minimal signs of warpage at the point of failure. Im not sure if thats because the head was leaking there or because his milling machine didn't do FLAT!
I plan on approaching him tomorrow with our found evidence and asking what his plan is for going foward on making sure these extra costs are handled. The mechanic has been documenting everything and has already assured us he will be backing us in court if need be.
I definitely get worked about these things but am able to take a level headed aproach when it comes to finding a resolution with the parties involved. If I don't like his answer, my simple answer will be "And thats how you would like to move foward with this, ok, you will be heaaring more from us shortly." And simply walk out and move foward in small claims. I will give him the opportunity to cover the additional cost for the mechanic to fix his sloppy work and I expect a full one year warranty on the work starting from the finish date of these final repairs.
We were supposed to get a 12/unlimited mileage warranty on his work. Obviously his work is not the greatest and if we have a failure going foward....well....we will deal with that if it happens. Needless to say, I know lot of people in this area and have even ran a race for township commissioner here. Many people will be hearing about the final handling of this so it's in his best interest and his best business practice to admit the fault and make this right. Stay tuned.....lol
""I have a digital caliper and plan on in measuring the gasket material today""
A digital vernier caliper can get you in the ball park but a micrometer is the correct tool for more accuracy to measure spots all around your gasket .
If the head on his mill is off [ not true ] it can cut in a concave profile, or if the ways are worn/damaged in areas this can also cause anomalies in the finish but it does not sound or look like this is the issue .
From the pic of the gasket it looks like the cylinders heat/flame trail moved directly towards the clamping bolt ... looks like it was lacking in clamping pressure .. evidence points to not tightened to spec or it came loose from the bad threads , both from what I can see so far are his responsibility .
A digital vernier caliper can get you in the ball park but a micrometer is the correct tool for more accuracy to measure spots all around your gasket .
If the head on his mill is off [ not true ] it can cut in a concave profile, or if the ways are worn/damaged in areas this can also cause anomalies in the finish but it does not sound or look like this is the issue .
From the pic of the gasket it looks like the cylinders heat/flame trail moved directly towards the clamping bolt ... looks like it was lacking in clamping pressure .. evidence points to not tightened to spec or it came loose from the bad threads , both from what I can see so far are his responsibility .