Cooling for Angry Bird - compressor spec sought

KMT

Registered User
One more thing...are you using the computer & IRCM to control the A/C clutch*? From the manual:
-=-

The electro-drive cooling fan system consists of a fan and a two-speed electric motor attached to a fan shroud located behind the radiator. The electro-drive cooling fan is wired to operate only when the ignition switch is in the RUN position, thereby preventing cooling fan operation after the ignition switch is turned to the OFF position.

WARNING: DISCONNECT THE COOLING FAN PRIOR TO PERFORMING ANY UNDERHOOD SERVICE SINCE THE FAN COULD CYCLE IF THE IGNITION SWITCH IS LEFT IN THE ON POSITION EVEN THOUGH THE ENGINE IS NOT RUNNING.

The cooling fan is controlled during vehicle operation by the integrated relay control assembly and EEC-IV module, which will energize the cooling fan under the following conditions:
• Cooling fan will run at low speed if:
  1. Engine temperature is higher than normal. Fan starts running at 106°C (222°F), and stops running at 101°C (214°F).
  2. A/C is on and vehicle speed does not provide enough natural airflow. Fan starts running at speeds at or below 69 km/h (43 mph) and stops running at 77 km/h (48 mph).
Cooling fan will run at high speed if:
a. Engine temperature is higher than desirable and fan has been operating at a low speed. Fan starts running at high speed at 110°C (230°F), and stops running at 107°C (224°F).
NOTE: Cooling fan will not cycle with A/C.

*The wide-open throttle (WOT) A/C cutout is used on all supercharged engine applications. During hard acceleration, a signal is sent to the ECA. The ECA then signals the integrated relay control assembly to cut off power to the A/C clutch field coil. This keeps the engine from being overloaded.
 

KMT

Registered User
Might talk to your AC vendor. I think A/C cutoff @ WOT is common.

Otherwise, tons of ways to make it happen if you DIY, from a limit switch on the throttle linkage (example: nitrous trigger), to a kill button under the gas pedal. I swapped a bored out 312 into a '56 F100 that kept eating manual transmissions, and I eventually went to a 3-speed with overdrive out of a '56 Vic. I put a starter button under the gas pedal to kill the ignition for no-shift downshift out of overdrive. Great fun...the M&H BiteRites on the rear would squeal every time I floored it. Let me retain the OE truck diff gearing, but gave me a scarier highway speed.
 

jclars

Registered User
I too have M&H tires on this trucks original rear end, with a 1950 three speed with OD in front of it. They now reside in a traditional 1929 Model A hot rod. With a bored out 239 flathead driving them, I assure you the tires do not squeal!

The trucks original steering gear also was repurposed to this hot rod. So I finally made use of all the parts that the SC displaced!
 
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KMT

Registered User
bored out 239 flathead

After the F100, I had a '49 F1...pulled the 6 cyl and dropped in a V8 flathead. Loved how you could start in gear and drive away. I want to do an SC swap into a '32 HiBoy.

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jclars

Registered User
That would be a cool look to a traditional rod.

Off topic, except for it's linked parts to Angry Bird...

When the 56 F100 got the SC transplant, it donated parts to this project.

BTW - this hotrod has a WOT cut-out. When revving too high in 2nd it simply pops out of gear! (Three on the tree, also from F100)
 

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jclars

Registered User
This afternoon I verified fan operation by manually overiding the hi and lo conductors. Both came on, but terminals were quite green. Cleaned them and plugged it back in. After approx. 20 minute idle, it finally kicked in. The next time I had an infrared gun ready, and sure enough, at about 220*F at the base of the temp sensor, it read 220 - 221 just momentarily. Fan on for maybe 30 seconds and it was cool enough to shut off. Really good air flow through the radiator, reducing it's temperature to the 150*F range.

With that confirmed, I am wondering if I can introduce a direct power lead to the lo speed fan terminal to over ride the OEM relay when the AC is turned on?
 

KMT

Registered User
Good testing...sounds like you're good to go. Yes, green connectors are a bane in the PNW. I've lost count how many I've had to deal with on my Anny, stem to stern.

I'll have to think about if there is a risk of backfeed if you don't find a way to bifurcate the OE circuit when going direct. A pair of dutifully rated diodes inline on each feed might be in order. I think the starter circuit uses one at the fender mounted solenoid?

Fan draws a lot of current - I tested on my SC and found approx. 35 DCA on both circuits, at fan connector. Pls. confirm your direct feed is up to the task.

Luv the Grey Ghost ;)
 

jclars

Registered User
speaking of diodes, there appears to be one for the AC clutch. I plan to use the manufacturers safety switch for shut-down. I see that the SC terminal has a ground, and it tested as such, but if the safety switch is a single conductor, what do I do with that ground terminal on the compressor?
 

jclars

Registered User
Yeah, that's what you get with an amateur! Thanks for your patience.

The two prong plug in at the compressor - one is blk/y the other is blk. The EVTM indicates it is a ground, but not sure if it is part of a switch to ground with the safety switch signal. So I am not sure where and when that ground is initiated or whether it is constant. From testing cold, it appears it is directly constant grounded. That would allow it to work with the Cold Air AC safety switch.
 

KMT

Registered User
We've talked about how Ford loves to make or break a circuit via ground, but 57 black at the clutch looks to be a hard ground.
 

jclars

Registered User
Whew! Dodged one.

I remember Ford's penchant for that from my original SC conversion.

In fact I lost my cruise control after pruning wires under the dash and have always suspected a ground interruption. I am finally going to look into that. now that I have the dash torn down for this AC install.

I am comfortable moving forward with their system at this point. Hopefully the next post will be turning the corner toward the AC install!

Thanks for the continuing guidance!

John
 

jclars

Registered User
Another week, another question (or two or three...)

My system is in pieces on the bench, but connecting the cut ends, it appears the hose sizes are reversed from what Old Air Products instructions show. When you have time, can you look at your car and tell me if I am looking at this schematic correctly?
 

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KMT

Registered User
Strange...that image shows the discharge line, from compressor to condense, larger than the return line from the condenser, but on my '90, if anything, the return line off the condenser is a tiny bit larger. At the least, those two tubes are near same. I assume you're using new lines, so as long as they path correctly, no issue?

Maybe a 5/16" line is kit sufficient and/or a cost savings.

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jclars

Registered User
Strange...that image shows the discharge line, from compressor to condense, larger than the return line from the condenser, but on my '90, if anything, the return line off the condenser is a tiny bit larger. At the least, those two tubes are near same. I assume you're using new lines, so as long as they path correctly, no issue?

Maybe a 5/16" line is kit sufficient and/or a cost savings.

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Thanks for checking - I think the difference is they put the accumulator (filter-drier) at the condenser, rather than at the evaporator. I spoke with the Old Air rep and he reassured me that all compressors were standardized for fittings, so it should be fine. Just need to adapt to whatever fitting is coming off the compressor.
 

jclars

Registered User
I'll have to think about if there is a risk of backfeed if you don't find a way to bifurcate the OE circuit when going direct. A pair of dutifully rated diodes inline on each feed might be in order. I think the starter circuit uses one at the fender mounted solenoid?

Fan draws a lot of current - I tested on my SC and found approx. 35 DCA on both circuits, at fan connector. Pls. confirm your direct feed is up to the task.

Hi Ken,

Passed the point of no return. I should have the new compressor (and serpentine belt) tomorrow. Ordering the Old Air Product system this morning.

Concerning an earlier post with the electric fan - You mentioned two diodes. I am only planning to "bifurcate" the low speed side of the fan to the Old Air trinary switch. Do I also need a diode for the high speed circuit as well? It will remain ECU triggered only. Is there still a potential for feedback through the high speed circuit?

Can you recommend a type of Diode?
 

KMT

Registered User
Is there still a potential for feedback through the high speed circuit?

I believe so, yes....OE, they both use the same (fan motor internal) ground.

Bought a Copart car Monday, should be here this week. Audi A6 AWD Bi-Turbo V6.
 

Bird poop

Registered User
I think you'd need to add an aftermarket fan controller that conditionally triggered the hi side based on (a) lo already being energized and (b) the target higher temp* being reached.

My opinion is that if conditions are such that hi is lit up, it's time to reconsider what it is that's making that happen. I don't think hi is a routine cooling strategy...just for emergency.

Errata:

The low speed fan comes on at 0.37v coming out of the ECT, at it's connector. Must be above 50° ambient.

Strategy/sequence:
• 0.60v = 194°, below N on the gauge, stock thermostat is full open @ 192° ~ 195° depending which is installed. My SC has a 192° stat as of 2.15.19 that went in back in 2017.
• 0.53v = 200°~ 205° and N on the gauge
• 0.46 left side of O, 212~215°
• 0.42 almost straight up O ~ R, 218°?
• 0.37/.39 220°~222° low speed fan turn on, left side of R on gauge
• Fan comes on and drives it back to N +/- depending on load and ambient air temp, etc.

Notes:

  • lo speed on at 222° and above / off at 214°
  • *hi speed on at 228° and above / off at 220° …if hi is on, it will drive temp down and shut off at 220°... lo will also still be on, pushing temp down to 214, then fan is all off.
  • A/C on runs lo speed fan, not hi.

No meets on the left coast I'm aware of...something planned east, I think.

2021 Saturday lunch shopping list
Great info
 
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