Itching for a bit more power, MPX?

B

BKB

Registered User
Haven't stopped in for a long time with my SC powered mustang, been just driving and enjoying it. Decided to take it apart and fix a few things and check out the general health of the motor. Last oil change I had some metal on the magnet that I have never seen before, kind of long fibers. Painting the bottom of the car and installing a 1999 8.8 with 3.73s and T2 diff. IMG_8262.jpgIMG_1174.jpgIMG_1237.jpgFor performance changing the supercharger has been on my mind but I'm cheap and honestly a bit lazy. So here are some questions.

I'm running Toms double roller adjustable timing chain set with the factory tensioner. Should I do this oil hole modification I hear Dave doing? I did some digging and I could not find a drill size or location to drill. Is it best to run without a tensioner? Or does a static tensioner work off of a different engine?

The MPX case. I never got into this I believe in the beginning they were welded cases and had lots of reliability issues. This being a stronger new cast case seems like a great option. What would I expect over my 1994 ported blower with MP inlet manifold at around 13% overdrive. My guess would be around 30hp and I think I'm OK with that. What would be the typical OD on a MPX 20%? what does the case do for temp reductions? If I buy the case is the matching inlet still a restriction? I have no problem making my own as large as possible I have a bit more room then you SC guys.

Engine
3.8 Coy prepped block
Total seal rings
Custom pistons 9.5-1 on 351 H-rods
home made girdle
Long tubes
Heads light port larger exhaust valve
Cam
GROSS VALVE LIFT .548 .548
DURATION @ .006
TAPPET LIFT 263 273
VALVE TIMING OPEN CLOSE
@ .050 INT 5- 39
EXH 48 4-
SPECS FOR CAM INST. @ 112.0 CENTERLINE
INT EXH
DURATION @ .050 214.00 224.00
LOBE LIFT .317 .317
LOBE SEPARATION 114.0
ROCKER ARM RATIO 1.73 1.73 REQ

Car made 400rwhp and 450tq
 
400 rwhp & 450 ft. lbs & your itching for more?
You mentioned you're putting in a 8.8 w/ 3:73. Whats in it now, it held up obviously?
 
Is this motor stroked? I'm curious how you were able to achieve 400 rwhp with this setup. I have a similar setup with a stock bottom end and can't sniff anything close to 400 rwhp.
 
I had a 94 length 8.8 with 3.27s but after the tr6060 and larger wheels & tires its was way too tall. It would get 27mpg on the highway but 6th was something like 1400 rpm at 70mph, shooting for 30mpg with the 3.73s. The 1999 8.8 is wider so I can ditch the spacers for a bit more safety.

My car always made more power then a SC even on a mustangdyno. My buddy had a shop with a dyno and he had a SC so we would spend weekends seeing what the cars made with every little change, miss that dyno. No proof but all 3" intercooler piping with a large front mount IC, Long tube headers and true dual exhaust. I have had a raised lower intake since I built this motor in 96. Custom Ross pistons with more compression and good quench so I can run 18' timing on 15psi. Custom made IC return and 95mm TB. Its a 3.8 as I listed it.

As of right now my RPM is very limited and I'm assuming that's a function of the blowers limited CFM and increased heat output. This motor feels done around 4700rpm and when I data log street racing that's about where I shift. I'm also thinking of endurance racing so miles of WOT running and I'm concerned of locking up the rotors inside the case. Don't know if the MPX would make this issue better , worse or no difference. I do have a lead on a water cooled Whipple style SC that is built for WOT racing but I have no info on physical size or its output.

This car has been pretty dead nutz reliable for good part of 20 years so not looking to break 500hp, but 430 hp with maybe close to 500 torque would be really nice.
 
I've seen your car multiple years at Carlisle, nice to finally connect the dots via the forums.

Can you explain what was done to raise the lower intake.

-Tim
 
INTAKE 001.JPGWhen I did that I had no idea what I was doing. I cut the top off ground out the triangle in the inside. Cut a lid out of scrap aluminum and used a spool gun to weld it back together. No pre-heat no after heat and it was just sitting on the welding bench. Didn't warp or crack. I would say I got very lucky. That was pre digital camera 1996 for me, I think I have physical pictures of it somewhere. When I was a little smarter in the 2000s I made the return plenum twice the size and had some warping issues that time. It does have some distribution issues that I'm going to make my second attempt to fix. Made some mods a few years ago that showed a 15% improvement to distribution that allowed a few degrees more timing and more power. Since I know what worked Im going to see if any more steps can be made to get it better.
 
I find there's a lot of good information from salke in this thread about the MPX blower install that might make your decision on your upgrades.

My understanding is the MPX really excels when Overdriven to higher levels, which would be something to consider as well.

MPX Test Car Details

People have been asking what went into the car that made 391rwhp with the new MPX blower so here they are. The car started off with a recently built 4R70W and Art Carr 2600rpm 10" converter. The motor was a 100% stock 89 SC motor although it was in a 95SC. We have no idea when the 89 motor...
www.sccoa.com

Find it pretty incredible the HP your getting out of a ported late model blower. Majority of us have ARs or Whipples to get there. Pretty cool to hear it can be done.

-Tim
 
I used to have a heavily modified intake manifold that had an extreme amount of porting and welding and a matched set of heads with much larger intake runners. Both were made by Wade Embry at ESM and required hand made intake intake manifold gaskets. When I damaged that motor using nitrous back around 2009, I had David Dalke at SCU inc rebuild the motor. Part of that rebuild included a new set of heads and a matching intake manifold. The porting done this time was nothing radical and used stock gaskets for intake and the return plenum. When it was all done and tuned it made more power than it did with the old extreme ported manifold and heads. Point I'm trying to make, is that a ported stock intake manifold is not really a restriction (even on a 4.2 motor) and it will flow well enough to make 500 rwhp with a non locking AOD. I would also expect to create some air distribution issues from raising the roof and removing the triangle.
 
I started looking for some dyno papers and found a few. This dyno was one of the last ones I did with the junkyard long block that had a reground 208/208 cam, long tubes, stock supercharger pulleys, non ported SC, Mustang ECU with EEC tuner and no clue what I was doing. This dyno matches others I had done years before at other shops. I remember back then 300rwhp was a pretty big deal.
IMG_1267.jpg

Around 2012 I took the car down to DD to have it tuned. The tuning was never resolved and ran like crap when it went in and worse after I left, nothing against DD the V6 mustang EEC just delt with this engine oddly and I had tons of transient fuel issues. This was a fresh Coy Miller short block with custom Ross pistons and around 9.5-1 compression. I did have the heads cleaned up at a different shop with larger exhaust valves on stock seats do to another machine shop offset grinding every exhaust valve. They were ported but everything that guy touched needed corrected so I have no idea if they are better or worse then OEM.

IMG_1271.jpg
These are the #s at 2012 I believe. So after getting home I decided I need to learn how to tune for real. Re-pinned my wiring harness and slapped a 94 SC EEC in it that I bought in 1996-97 from ford, bought my license off sailor bob and started fresh. Now I did many e-mail tunes for other people and after 2 or 3 data logs I usually had it nailed down and they were happy. My own car took years and thousands of data logs and I believe its because the cam is installed massively retarted or advanced, I will know soon. Just some weird things its very sensitive to injector timing, requires a lot of IAC air and in general is very unstable below 2k so very slow dashpot or stalls at every stop, requires cold start fuel for minutes or very unstable idle.

So the car is now dead nutz reliable to drive with A/C on or off, no stalling or weird stuff and great MPG. Only complaints are not OEM drivability under 180' F and fuel dilution in oil again because of weird cold starts and the crazy amount of fuel it wants for minuets after start. I pulled the lower intake because I knew I had pretty bad distribution issues and was able to correct a lot of it in my testing. Real world testing proved it with total remap of fuel table and tweaks to timing table and reading plugs. I did find a different pulley for the supercharger and now up to maybe 18% overdrive but this seemed to just bump torque and really added no HP. Also ported the blower as much as you can without welding. I did not play on the dyno that day, I was happy with the #s and didn't touch fuel or timing. Can't remember if I'm at 18-22' now days but I can run 89 and still beat on it so I'm happy. Can't find the dyno but it was something like 396 rwhp and 449 tq.

IMG_1266.jpg
No matter what I do I can't get this picture oriented properly, but anyways I'm pretty much done at the back of the car. It's time to start dropping the K-member with trans so I can fix a few things and degree the cam. Also looking at the supercharger I was thinking to adapt I think I'm going to scrap that idea. It would require custom fuel rails, snout, inlet, pulley system, bypass, water cooling system, engine oil fed. To be honest I don't have that kind of energy for what 60HP. I'm pretty sure I'm going to order the MPX.
 
I would do a cam swap and some conical valve springs and leave the rest alone. I’m sure DD could set you up with a package that will work well with your current mods.
 
I had one of the most extreme mpx blowers around that wade embry also helped me build. At that time no one made abradive coated rotors for them. i would go with a highly overdrive mix with a big inlet plenum and 95 mm to with a 4" intake. In my experience because the air going into the stock manifold is forced porting the crap out of them doesn't make a whole lot of difference.
 
I have beehive springs and the last time I spoke to DD he did not recommend a new cam when I asked. This engine stops making power around 5K with the old 208 cam and it's not changed a bit with the new 214/224 cam. I would think if I'm cam limited the power band would have increased a bit with more duration. Boost doesn't drop off but it sure feels like I'm running out of air, doesn't a m90 only produce 500cfm? They would be about the same price I'm guessing but The stronger MPX case I can at least tell myself will be a benefit on long WOT runs. I'm waiting on pricing now and unfortunately cost and time will be the biggest determining factors. I want to retire a lot more then I want a little bit faster V6 mustang.
 
BKB said:
I have beehive springs and the last time I spoke to DD he did not recommend a new cam when I asked. This engine stops making power around 5K with the old 208 cam and it's not changed a bit with the new 214/224 cam. I would think if I'm cam limited the power band would have increased a bit with more duration. Boost doesn't drop off but it sure feels like I'm running out of air, doesn't a m90 only produce 500cfm? They would be about the same price I'm guessing but The stronger MPX case I can at least tell myself will be a benefit on long WOT runs. I'm waiting on pricing now and unfortunately cost and time will be the biggest determining factors. I want to retire a lot more then I want a little bit faster V6 mustang.
Click to expand...

Sorry, I thought you still had the 208/208 cam.
 
IMG_1291.jpgIMG_1293.jpg

Drive line is out so I can finish the little bit of paint underneath. Have some powder coating to touch up. Everything was mirror black and that just doesn't hold up well under hood, Will be making the accessory brackets flat black. I had some charging issues if I tried to idle any lower then 775 rpm so the underdrive alt pulley is being replaced. Engine needs a front main seal, cam degreed, T-chain oiling mods, check main and rod bearings.
 
So my gut feeling was correct, cam gear and T-chain show massive wear.

IMG_1305.jpegIMG_1302.jpegIMG_1303.jpegIMG_1304.jpeg

I sent morana a message about this to get his feedback. Engine has 60k miles so t-chain cover bushing and cam phaser bushings are tight. It seems the double roller hub is within .015 of a aftermarket replacement cam gear thickness. It seems like about 1/4” of the cam gear is not even touching. Only ran 5-30 Mobil and rpm’s have always been below 5k. So in general I see no excuse for this kind of damage in 20k miles.

Going over wiring harness to see if I can clean it up even more. Found air intake sensor wiring rubbed through and sitting on raw metal but never noticed it running weird or in a data log. Finished the underside paint where the trans was and I couldn’t get to it. Trying syncromesh in the 6060 to see if it shifts any better. Hard to beat the T-5 with red-line MTL.
 

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So does anyone else have experience with cam gears getting chewed up? I ordered a OEM sync gear and need to look in my stash to see if I have a extra Cam gear. No response from Tom Morana on the timing set or gear issues. His site says lifetime guarantee on the chain so we will see how that tunes out, I see the design has changed over mine. Mine does retain factory style oiling so I see no need to do other modifications since its using the hole in the cam and channeling that oil to the cam bolt with 4 grooved washer. This is a regrind cam so I don't see how the cam gear seems to mesh so poorly with the sync gear, almost 1/4" of the teeth have no engagement at all. I pulled some bearings and I'm happy to see they are in really great condition. Some damage was done probably from the metal being circulated from the cam gear and because of that its getting all new bearings. Found some old stock Clevite 77s in STD so I will slap them in and re-assemble the bottom end, heads are staying on for now. Also glad to see no main cap walk, maybe my home made girdle is working.
 
Measure the runout at the sync. gear for runout. Also see if the cam chain varies in slack, as you turn the crank 360 degrees. Need to check the outer face of the gear, to block, distance, compared to stock timing gears, and spacers. Does that cam use the stock small spacer, between the front cam journal, and keyway?
 
I'm in the process of finding a t-chain cover I can cut up to look at the gear mesh, if anyone has one let me know. Coys set up does not use the cam spacer behind the cam gear. No response from Coy so I'm about to bug him again. I have my original 3.8 mustang engine with 30k miles I'm about to pull the cover off so I can measure the T-chain cover bushing and lots of other stuff. Will update once I have more info.
 
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